[Adventure Calls] An Interview with James Porley Game Designer And Creator Of ‘Behind The Scenes’.

By Mike Roberts

Confused Wizards’ TTRPG ‘Behind The Scenes’ is live on Kickstarter now.

James Porley is the founder of ‘Confused Wizards’, a TTRPG company in Sydney Australia. He is the creator of ‘Behind The Scenes’, a rules light that emphasises drama and spectacle - where characters embody captivating TV show characters across any genre you can imagine.

In 2020 James enrolled in Video Game Design at A.I.E. after seeing an ad in a magazine. In 2022 he took the third year option to create a company and their first product which would become ‘Behind The Scenes’. Through 2023 James has lived his dream, working as a full time game designer, bringing BTS to life. And now, in April 2024, he has hit go live on hisKickstarter to fund the next step. What follows is a small part of his story so far.

Mike Roberts (left) with Confused Wizards’ James Porley (right).

Mike Roberts, TKFY (Interviewer): James from Confused Wizards…

James Porley, Confused Wizards (Creator): Yes, it's me!

Mike: Thank you for being here for 'Adventure Calls'.

James: Well, it's a pleasure. It's a pleasure.

Mike: For anybody who is listening to this or reading this for maybe the first time, who is James from Confused Wizards? And what brings us together today?

James, Confused Wizards: I'm just a regular dude. I got into tabletop role playing games and found a passion in it. For a long time, I didn't know what I wanted to do with it. I felt like I had to do something. I accidentally got into video game design. A friend of mine actually got into the same game design course as me, without knowing I was going into it. We had been playing table top role playing games as well, so that kind of started us talking more about game design and that kind of thing. When we finished our two year course there, we decided that we wanted to do the optional third year course they have. You start a business and you start a product and you work on it for the entire year. This ended up becoming ‘Confused Wizards’ and 'Behind The Scenes'. The game has kind of taken on a life of its own, it sort of changed a lot over the last two and a bit years.

Mike: To summarise the journey from where you started to here today - mid April 2024… And last Friday, at 7pm, you clicked ‘Go live’ on your Kickstarter for 'Behind The Scenes', the very first publication by Confused Wizards. I'm hassling you to make it go live because I wanna be the first person to back it. How are you feeling? Tell me, how did it feel to get to that moment and be hovering over the Kickstarter launch button on 'Behind The Scenes'?

James, Confused Wizards: Kind of stressful. Kind of like things have come to a culmination. It was tough because I had already delayed it so long. I delayed it for months because I felt like I wasn't ready. And, I just felt when I got to last Friday that I had to just do it! Otherwise I would never do it. I would keep find excuses not to do it.

Mike: I know that feeling really well. There’s always this sense of, you know, “Is it done?” When is it go time? If we if we go back to the previous times when you thought to launch… What was it that held you back? What stopped you from releasing what you've made prior to last Friday?

James, Confused Wizards: A lot of things, and it could be just in my head. But, sometimes I thought I didn't have enough art. Sometimes I thought that I hadn't promoted it enough. I still don't think I promoted it enough, but it's hard. Sometimes I thought like, Hey, I didn't have enough of the actual story, enough for the Kickstarter done yet. That it wasn't exactly right - was the story what I was trying to communicate, and could I do it better? I needed more feedback from people. I guess that's what I'm trying to say. I don't really know if I did get that stuff done, but I just felt like I had to do it. Otherwise it would never get done. So if it goes well, it goes well. I still have the two and a bit years I've spent on it. It's still been a good time, and I still have the game. So.

“I enjoyed storytelling in video games and I thought to myself, that’s something I feel like I could see myself doing.”

Mike: We're in 2024. The Kickstarter is live. An early love for tabletop role play games led you to apply for a game design course at a video game higher-ed facility. Take us back to A.I.E.. How old were you? What year was it? There’s a passion for TTRPG. Take us through what the experience and what A.I.E. was like.

James, Confused Wizards: So it was in 2020. So just before covid hit. And like, I didn't really put the two together. As in, I didn't put tabletop role playing games and video games, as game design, together. I thought they were two separate disciplines.

Mike: You're literally doing game design. But, for video games at this point, so it's completely separate in your mind to TTRPG.

James, Confused Wizards: Yeah. I’ve gotten into it because I enjoyed storytelling in video games and I thought to myself that's something I feel like I could see myself doing! I did enjoy it, and I still do enjoy it. But, I felt my skill set was better suited to tabletop role playing games where I don't have to interface with an engine. I don't have to have to learn how to code and all that stuff. And I felt like the industry in Australia for video games is not where I'm suited in the sense of narrative design and all that stuff. You have to be a bit more of a generalist. And I felt just trying to lean into tabletop role playing games and try and get more experience that way was easier for me - less of a full dive into the deep end. With A.I.E., I saw an ad for it. And I just realised… I was like… I’ll give it a go! I wasn't really doing anything at the time. I went to an open day and they basically said, ‘Hey, you can just come and we'll teach you everything.’ You don't really need to know anything.

Mike: That was here? Where we are in Ultimo at Game Plus?

James, Confused Wizards: Yeah, it's across the road and they basically teach you the fundamentals of game design. They teach you, like even the basics of coding and art and all that stuff, which I didn't find very helpful. It didn't really stick with me. But, a lot of the game design fundamentals and the principles around it all really sunk in and made a lot of sense to me.

Mike: Right. So from what they showed you, in terms of their education, you took the things that inspired you and started applying it what you had energy in.

James, Confused Wizards: Exactly. As an example, my second year teacher taught me this idea in video game design. The three C’s - Camera, character and control. It's basically like the core fundamentals of what makes a video game. What you need for it to be the most basic version of that thing. I took that and applied it to tabletop role playing games. What's the core fundamental? What you need for a tabletop role playing game? There's a lot of crossover in the psychology of trying to get someone to experience what you want them to experience in game design, which I also find very interesting a lot of the time.

Mike: I've thought a lot about video game cameras a lot lately. The parallel with tabletop and in-person role playing is theatre of the mind. You know that as the game master, or dungeon master, you're controlling that camera. I think it's interesting.

“[With A.I.E.] I had a leg up in being a full time game designer.”

It's 2020 covid time. You start at A.I.E.. When was ‘Behind The Scenes’ conceived? You mentioned you had an earlier version on Drive-Thru RPG. The first iteration, perhaps of many iterations of what has now become 'Behind The Scenes' now live on Kickstarter. When did that sort of become a real thing where you're like, OK, I'm doing video games at A.I.E.. I’ve started in 2020. When do you start focusing on creating ‘Confused Wizards’, your organisation, what would eventually become 'Behind The Scenes’. How did that all come about?

James, Confused Wizards: Myself and a friend of mine… We started Confused Wizards as a project with A.I.E.. They have this 3rd year course business course where you make a business. You make a game. You have a year to do it. That's where it started. And it didn't pick up really any steam. That was 2022. We went to PAX22. We showcased it at a play test event called Collaboratory. And I think I was a little bit over my head. I was too focused on designing the game. It became this very over designed thing, trying to be two things at once that were conflicting. And I couldn't see that. It wasn't really until 2023 where I started working on it full time, that I said to myself I need to pick a path for it and focus more on I what I enjoy about the game. I think that's kind of sums it up.

Mike: To put together that timeline: Started A.I.E. 2020. In 2022, Confused Wizards becomes a thing for a project. Then you finished A.I.E. at the end of 2022. It’s then 2023. You were a student. You’re now a full time game designer. You’re working on 'Behind The Scenes’. How do you make that transition? From a certain perspective, for a lot of people, that's their dream. So how did you make that happen?

James, Confused Wizards: Well, so something to explain, as well. In 2022, when I was still at A.I.E., I was actually still working here [at Game Plus]. The office that's next to us used to be for the students at A.I.E. that worked here. In 2023 they had this programme called ‘The Incubator’, where you can take your project from the business course into trying to develop it full time and they'll give you funding for it.

Mike: That sounds amazing.

James, Confused Wizards: I have a lot of problems with it. I don't really want to go into it, haha. But it sounds amazing… But it really isn't that amazing. It's amazing if you want an amount of funding. But if you want to work full time in your project, it's not amazing. It's not enough! But it was still something. It got me where I am now.

Mike: Absolutely!

James, Confused Wizards: It's still good. And I say that because that's what's got me into working here full time. They gave me the space for free. They gave me the desk for free and they gave me the equipment for free, right? I had a leg up in being what you would consider a full time game designer. Yeah, I don't have to pay for the space, but I still have to pay for my life, right? That’s something that I have had to worry about.

“I’ve only learned as much as I’ve learned because I went all in.”

Mike: I think that's a challenge that everybody faces in the space. You’ve got to bring a product to market that takes a lot of time investment, not just investment money-wise, but personal energy. A lot of people build things as side projects. A lot of people go all in. I'd argue that you went all in, you know? Making it work. I know what it's like to cut the costs. To be able to just try to go day to day, week to week, and try to bring something to life.

James, Confused Wizards: I think it's the same with anything creative. If you could go back to where you started with the information you have now, you definitely could do better. I've only learned as much as I've learned because I went all in. If I hadn't gone all in, I probably wouldn't be where I am now. So even if it if I go all in and it does end up biting me then like I can't say I haven't learnt anything, right?

Mike: Yeah, and I mean, that's huge. I think there’s something interesting you touched on there that might be great for listeners and readers. You've hit the go live button. The Kickstarter for ‘Behind The Scenes’ is live. It’s going to be successful. The campaign has been live for a week at time of writing, early days yet, and I know there must be a lot of feelings around that. If you think back to the journey so far to get to that point, what would you do different?

James, Confused Wizards: Yeah, I think I would personally have started reaching out to more people earlier. I was really worried about not having a product that people would want to see. And I was worried about wasting people's time. And what I've realised is like, if people don't wanna look at your product, they'll just not. So you aren't wasting their time by just asking them, right? I've only really started doing that this year in 2024. If I'd done it earlier, I could have made something quicker. I think about the mentality of sunk cost. I feel like I have to gain something from it financially for it to be considered successful. Because I've spent so much time on it… Which I think is so negative for my mental health. I've tried to sort of get out of that mentality. But it's hard, right?

Mike: Do you think that played a factor in the decision to go live with the Kickstarter?

James, Confused Wizards: Yeah, probably. But like I was saying before, I can only keep doing this for so long. Right? So I need to go live at some point, and I've already been doing it for two and a bit years. There definitely is an element of just doing it, because I've already spent so much time on it and wanting to see something from it. But there is a point where you just need to pull the trigger.

Mike: Yeah, 100%. In a lot of ways, this is the testing of the metal. This is the Forge, you know? Let's talk about Kickstarter itself. What has that experience been like? As a creator, you've got you've got to take your wares to market. They provide a platform to do this with certain incentives and a profit sharing kind of model. How have you found taking 'Behind The Scenes' to Kickstarter?

James, Confused Wizards: Isolating in a way. I’ve heard from people that have done their own Kickstarters. Some people that work here, they got a lot of support from Kickstarter. And maybe, because my initial submission was approved but wasn't anything to look at, really… It was a draught of what I was doing. So, I felt I made a submission and they just accepted it. But, then I really didn't hear anything else from them. I was expecting more. At the same time, it's also been a good platform in a way to try and sell yourself and sell your product. And it's been good for me because I've struggled with that a lot. Struggled with trying to find the words to sell my product in a way that is concise. I think with Kickstarter, I think it's good, but it could be improved. Personally, I think it's a layout and the story creator and editor is basic for a company that makes seemingly so much money. I think they could improve it. But, it's good.

Mike: The thing that you mentioned there was maybe you were expecting more support. And when you say more support, is that around how to be as successful as you could be on the platform? Literally more buy in from the team at Kickstarter in helping you become successful?

James, Confused Wizards: I think where they could improve is to have you understand how Kickstarter ‘the algorithm' works. A lot of people had said to me if you hit your funding goal quickly, you'll get more support in the actual search engine of Kickstarter. All this stuff. And that sounds good. But is that really creator focused? Not really. That's Kickstarter focused. They're trying to maximise the amount of money they can get, So it's not really helping me as a small creator, and I don't know how you could improve that, but I think that's something if you want to… What's the expression? Raise all boats?

Mike: On a high tide all boats rise.

James, Confused Wizards: Exactly. They're not doing that. They're just they're making… For me personally… They're making… How I feel about it is that they're making the ships that are already at high tide higher and making everything else lower.

Mike: That was what that was what came to my mind as you were talking. If you have a brand. If you have recognition… If you're not an unknown indie, for example. If you're a celebrity. Brandon Sanderson is a great example. The sci-fi / fantasy writer. You've got an audience already. What they provide there is a mechanism to monetise a community that already exists. It seems to me based on what I’ve watched and read there's this 6 to 12 month marketing runway period where the only thing you should be focused on is marketing and being successful on Kickstarter. I've always found that's not where I would  - and this might be just be wishful thinking - But it's not where, as a creator, I want to spend my time. I want to make the best possible product. Getting started as a completely independent indie it's not like they've really helped you with their algorithm…

James, Confused Wizards: I just think that with Kickstarter… I don't really understand how you can be an indie and make it as a table top designer at all. Because, like, I don't have the money to do a 12 month marketing push. You know? I don't have the things that you would want for a very typical Kickstarter campaign. I don't have physical goods. I don't have all that stuff. I have a bare bones, low to the ground, campaign which would get me at least near to my goal, and I'm hoping it still does. But it's demoralising. Sometimes when you post to some to a place and a person with a lot of advice tells you your Kickstarter is likely to fail because you didn't spend 12 months marketing it, and I'm like, right, what do you want me to do? Like, do you want me to just spend another 12 months working on a game for nothing, you know? So like, maybe going to Kickstarter was not the best idea, but I've learned!

Mike: Absolutely. And time will tell. You're only 6.5 days into the campaign.

James, Confused Wizards: Well, that's the other thing you keep hearing. I don't know if I said it, but the statistics. I think they even sent it to me, the Kickstarter team. The statistics if you haven't funded your goal, haven't funded your project in two days, you’re 90% less likely to fund at all. And I'm like, don't tell me that! Why would you tell me that?

Mike: Something that’s taken years to make and after 48 hours you read basically, statistically, they're telling me I've tanked. I can imagine how that would feel.

James, Confused Wizards: Everyone has said this is how Kickstarter works. You don't really get it until you actually try. And like I was saying before, if I did, if I never tried it, I would never get here. As I don't want it to fail, I'm ok with failing. I can take more time. I can reprioritise my life around different things and try and find a way to make it profitable a different way.

Mike: Right. This could just be one of several steps and bring this product to market, you know? Should it not fund, that is just another data point, you know? And then you can, as you say, recalibrate. Think about your energy, What do you want to make in 2024 or 25? In terms of the next step for this product, you know, or another product, I tell you what, you'll find super fans. People who will just love what you do. And even via Kickstarter. It might be what gives it the energy to have its second act. This is just the beginning in a lot of ways.

James, Confused Wizards: For sure.

“If people don’t wanna look at your product, they’ll just not. So you aren’t wasting their time by just asking them, right?”

Mike: Speaking of beginnings, we've talked a lot about you at a high level. 'Behind The Scenes’. The game itself. Tell us about it.

James, Confused Wizards: ‘Behind The Scenes’ is about feeling like you're in a TV show. Everything about it is inspired from film media, TV, all that stuff. At a high level, the way we do that is in three different ways. We have something we call dramatic gameplay, and that's through the structure of the game. The encounter systems are all about, rather than having to hit a monster down to zero hit points, you have the difficulty trait of the encounter that you need to lower to zero as its health. So, the game is all about keeping things vague in a descriptive way, so you as the player can imagine whatever you want to imagine. I find when I play some other tabletop role playing games, the game is so focused on simulating the experience for you that I kind of lose myself in trying to find a way to imagine what's happening right.

Mike: Almost like there’s too much detail. Whether it's in exactly the environment, whether it’s the materials at the table. Or the rules, which completely pull you out sometimes.

James, Confused Wizards: For me, it's definitely the rules themselves. When something is too detailed and I have to read a two page rule, I can't be bothered. I've tried to make that game, and that's kind of what I was hinting at earlier when I said the game was two different games, one game was very much like that. It had a lot of rules. It had a lot of extra fluff for no reason. The other half was more storytelling - an evocative kind of game. I had to choose one or the other. I don't mind playing either game, but they don't fit together. I chose the storytelling one purely because it's easier to make. It was easier for me to design. It takes a lot more work, a lot more balancing, so I didn't really want to go there yet. ‘Behind The Scenes’ is a very improv-based game. I really like improvising in RPGs, and I wanted to build that game. I really wanted to build that game because every RPG is based on improv, but a lot of them do it not very well. They put it on the players and the DM to, like, just know how to instinctively improv, right? They don't actually give them, ‘this how to do it’. What I've tried to do in the game is to try to emulate the vibe of improv of that  ‘yes and’ kind of thing by having an action and reaction based system. To give you an example of how it works, I as the player I tell you as a DM I'm doing. You as a DM say yes, that's cool. Make a roll, you roll. Then I have points I can spend to give you the result of what happens as the DM. And you say, that's cool. That happens. But I also get points, and I'm gonna spend my points to ‘yes and' you on what's happening. So you'll something good will happen. But because of your points, something bad will happen. Then I, as the player, can react to that and do that process again.

Mike: How I think about that is you really are surfacing a contract between the players and the game master? It's almost a hidden contract. The contract no one talks about or if they do talk about it, they allude to it. But you're being quite direct about the fact that this is how it’s playing out.

James, Confused Wizards: There's always there's plenty of hidden contracts in TTRPGs. The most basic one is you're all here to have fun.  And sometimes people forget that. I've had a lot of feedback from players that say the game is too mean! As the DM you can do too much mean stuff to the players. And I'm like, that's the same thing here as it as it in any game: you can be mean to your players. But the hidden contract is that you will work together and create a story together.

Mike: We’re riffing on that idea, that contract. What you're describing is that the people at the table matter. You’re storytellers. Players, they have their own stories and narratives that they make around character.  And when you bring people together that’s when the magic of tabletop really happens. Sometimes you get an experience that's incredibly pleasant, and it's exactly in line with what you want. And I can remember in a recent game I was playing where I asked to do something and got a rebuke. I remember it wasn't even that my roll was particularly bad. But it was flat out, I couldn't do it. I was bummed the rest of the game. I stewed on it. People are going to be people, right?

James, Confused Wizards: Personally, it's not even a people thing. I don't want to assume, but I feel like by your description, you were either playing D&D or Pathfinder.

Mike: D&D.

James, Confused Wizards: That's where I'm coming from. D&D the game is built to engineer that situation. If you can't fit it into the rules that they've made, it's a no, because you don't know what to do, right? What I've tried to do in ‘Behind The Scenes’ - And don't get me wrong. I'm no mastermind. Plenty of people do this - But the game is designed in such a way that if you can't think of anything to do, you just make a roll you can just kind of improv it. And it should work.

Mike: That sounds really good. I’ve played 'Behind The Scenes’ a couple a couple of times now. I tried out some of your changes to the dice mechanics. I loved it. If anyone wants to connect with you at Confused Wizards, of for 'Behind The Scenes' Kickstarter. How do they do that? Where do they find James from Confused wizards?

James, Confused Wizards: So you can find me at YouTube. Confused Wizards channel. We have an instagram Confused Wizards. And we’re on X, @confusedwizards. We don't focus a lot on our social media. It’s another thing we should have done a lot more of, but it is what it is. You can go to Kickstarter directly. Back it there, just type in 'Behind The Scenes'. We’ll be at Generation Games this coming weekend and I'll be playing and showing 'Behind The Scenes'.

Mike: I'll be there!

James, Confused Wizards: Come over and play it! I will be there the entire weekend, from 10 until 5 both days..

“If you have something you wanna do, just do it. I hate when people give that advice. But, if you just go for it, and you try hard as you can, you’ll get something from it. No matter what you do. Even if you fail, you still get something from it. ”

Mike: We'll come over and play. As we wrap up, for anybody listening or reading this. One of the things we're trying to do with 'Adventure Calls' is bring together industry stories. And people at all different points in the industry. Any advice you have for game designers? People who might be starting out in tabletop games or otherwise, just like you on this journey. Anything you like to impart or share with the broader Aussie community?

James, Confused Wizards: Definitely start small. I heard that advice and was like, that doesn't apply to me. I'm just gonna start big!

Mike: Confused Wizards exceptionalism!

James, Confused Wizards: Exactly. I started with the biggest possible project I could… And just kind of went for it! One other I think that's also pretty good advice. If you have something you wanna do, just do it. I hate when people give that advice. But, if you just go for it, and you try hard as you can, you'll get something from it. No matter what you do. Even if you fail, you still get something from it. I think people need to consider their personal perspective. If you are very goal orientated, getting into game design as a career - it is going to be very painful. If you consider it as a motivation or as something to strive for, I think you'll find it very fulfilling.

Mike: James from Confused Wizards thanks so much for being here. Back ‘Behind The Scenes’ on Kickstarter today.

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You can back ‘Behind The Scenes’ on Kickstarter today.

Subscribe for free to ‘Adventure Calls’ at https://tkfy.co and receive issue #0 in May 2024.

Interview conducted in Sydney, April 12 2024 by Mike Roberts. Presented by TKFY.